Forums > The Worlio Zone > Site Discussion
Joined03/03/24
Posts0
May 23rd, 2023 at 12:56 am
#1732
Hello,

Sad news I'm afraid. Today I resigned my position as a mod of Worlio. It was a position I never really expected or asked for, but Wirla gave it to after some time of us knowing each other. I appreciated the site and what it did to be an easy place to host worlds.

The reason I resign is because I tried to speak with Wirla about this post that I was made aware of:
http://web.archive.org/web/20230220034557/https://wirlaburla.worlio.com/lgb.html
https://wirlaburla.worlio.com/lgb.html

I didn't want that type of content associated with my name (as a mod of Worlio at the time) nor my funding. I stopped my donations as soon as I saw it. I asked to chat over voice about it. His response was to refuse to engage in a voice conversation and stand behind doing nothing wrong. If it was a social media post on a personal page, I would've never seen it. But on a site associated with my name, any person stumbling on it has a hard time differentiating it as someone's own personal private takes. He wasnt interested in hearing me out over voice, or in letting me hear him out. He's made up his mind that knowing I wanted to talk about the post is enough. He didn't express any additional actions he would take.

At the end of the day, I am just sad all around. Sad that this is out there on Worlio, a place meant to just be about old net media and archival. And sad that Wirla didn't want to give me the time of day to talk about this so that maybe we wouldn't have this as an end result. I thought that after all this time, he would at least grant me and other Worlio staff that.

Due to both resigning and stopping my donations, Wirla took down the storage I had down to 32MB, so I will not be hosting Movie Night on Worlds any time soon. I'll still see you around on Worlds but likely will not be coming back to Worlio if things remain like this.


Wish you all the best,

DrFrasierCrane
May 23rd, 2023 at 1:06 am (edited)
#1733
The way I see it, the files and pages hosted at wirlaburla.worlio.com are his own personal site separate from Worlio. Just being owned by the webmaster and being hosted on the same domain is not a declaration of implied nor explicit affiliation with the site itself. There are no rules against such content on this site and the "Drop the T" page should have been expected given that the file hosting provided by Worlio is basically free reign so long as it's not illegal. You aren't affiliated with that page by simply being a moderator here, and I'm under the impression that you're leaving because you personally disagree with Wirla rather than because you're concerned for your own reputation.

Sad that this is out there on Worlio
This part really drives that motive home. You wanted objectionable content you disagreed with taken off of a website that you don't own and where there are no rules against it. It's unreasonable to expect this to go anywhere in your favor.

I don't know word-for-word what went down between you and Wirlaburla, but you make it sound like he was completely unwilling to talk to you at all, when the reality is that he simply didn't want to do it over voice. The way you paint the situation is manipulative and dishonest. Even if he was unwilling to debate with you over it... why should he? It's his website. There are very clear boundaries on what is and isn't allowed, and they're very open. You were staff here, out of all the people here you should know this. Your reasoning for wanting to argue with him is petty at best.
May 23rd, 2023 at 1:56 am (edited)
#1734
I cannot even begin to describe the disappointment I have felt from this interaction. This should've been kept a private matter. You could resign without airing dirty laundry, but you unfortunately took a horrible and gross turn and tried to turn this into a mud throwing battle. I am not going to do this with you. Let these be my only responses to the situation you have crafted yourself. You were not associated at all with the page in question before, but now you are whether you like it or not.

The page linked was from my own personal site. Everybody on Worlio has their own personal site under the worlio.com domain name. Just put your username as a subdomain (user.worlio.com). It was not affiliated or aligned with the views of Worlio.com in ANY way, and this is clear as outlined on our Rules & Guidelines. Regardless of who posted the opinion or page to their own user files, it would be perfectly fine under our rules, regardless of staff opinion. Worlio doesn't have to align with the views of what its users post, it just has to be law abiding.

Your approach to the discussion was very immature and concerning. I went to you for feedback since you cancelled your support, and you tried to pressure me in a voice call with staff members from a Discord server I was not affiliated with, but had shared staff members. I did not want to voice chat, and after numerous times of refusing to with no reason given, you told me why (the links in your OP) and then decided to be mad and guilt me into thinking you were a victim at all. All I asked for why you cancelled your support and it turned into a huge deal. I am upset that this couldn't be handled more maturely, but so be it.
Spoiler: A small snippet of what
[4:55 AM] powpow:
This isn't what a friendship is like though, not caring to hear out your friends and talk about your feelings? Did you ever consider me a friend?
[4:56 AM] Wirlaburla:
If I was your friend, you would be willing to speak over text without issue if it is what I desired.
[4:56 AM] Wirlaburla:
Clearly, we never were to begin with if you had such an issue understanding that.
[4:56 AM] powpow:
Did I not just do that?
[4:56 AM] Wirlaburla:
After much force to push back.
[4:56 AM] Wirlaburla:
That is not be how a friends interaction should be.
[4:57 AM] Wirlaburla:
But to think I will try to erase you like a dry erase board is insane.
[4:57 AM] Wirlaburla:
You have different ideas, different opinions, different ways to go about things. So what? I'm not going to shun you and everything you stand for just because of that.
[4:57 AM] Wirlaburla:
Know that I allow free thought on my site because I believe censoring opinions, no matter how nasty they are, divides us.
[4:58 AM] powpow:
This isn't my ideal way to do this. There's so much more we could talk about but my fingers can't meet the speed of just talking, you know?
[4:58 AM] Wirlaburla:
What place am I in to dictate what is right or wrong?
[4:58 AM] Wirlaburla:
Write out a long essay about it. No need to rush.
[4:58 AM] Wirlaburla:
I just refuse to voice.
[4:59 AM] Wirlaburla:
And know that I am not refusing because it is about this particular situation or you, but because I had no real reason why it should have been a voice call in the first place.
[4:59 AM] powpow:
I'm confused a bit.

You say you're not going to cut me out of your life. But something you would've done without issue on the past is now forever off the table?(voice chat)
Your storage space was returned to the basic plan because you asked to be removed from the staff team and from any mention of financial support, which includes the gold membership plan. What I find odd is how you want to completely disassociate from the site but yet you seemed still keen on using it. Which one is it? Do you want to associate yourself with the site or not?

I'm mostly met with disappointment and I am upset this is how the situation turned out. It shouldn't have been an issue, but yet it seems someone made it one anyway. Sorry you feel the way you do, and I wish the best for you. Thanks for your support of Worlio and sorry to see you go.
Joined06/07/21
Posts19
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:21 am
#1739
I hate to break this news to you Wirla, but worlio.com is your website. You are worlio.com.
It was posted to your personal user page .. on worlio.com. (wirlaburla.worlio.com)
Unfourtunatley, your opinions posted on your website, make those the opinions of the website. Even if it's just your user page.
If someone else were to have posted that post (which is now private, but wasn't always, which is how it was found in the first place) people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner, so you've attached that opinion to your buisness. I think you have the right to your opinion, but I also think that it is completely reasonable to not want you're name attached to the same buisness that has expressed those opinions.

This is all I'll say about the subject.
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:30 am
#1740
I hate to break this news to you Wirla, but worlio.com is your website. You are worlio.com.
It was posted to your personal user page .. on worlio.com. (wirlaburla.worlio.com)
Unfourtunatley, your opinions posted on your website, make those the opinions of the website. Even if it's just your user page.
If someone else were to have posted that post (which is now private, but wasn't always, which is how it was found in the first place) people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner, so you've attached that opinion to your buisness. I think you have the right to your opinion, but I also think that it is completely reasonable to not want you're name attached to the same buisness that has expressed those opinions.

This is all I'll say about the subject.
This message truly shares what the true intent of this is. Censor all opinions you don't like. Don't like an opinion? Make sure the place you posted that opinion on shuts the fuck down. I'm allowed to be an individual with my own damn opinions without forcing such opinions onto my site and business. It is a business, and my business shares no opinions because it isn't it's place.

If someone else were to have posted that post people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner
No, you would do that. You would think like that, and you would react this way. You would call me an asshole. So anybody else can have this opinion on my site but me? Is that the case? This is such fucking bullshit that I can't even begin.
Joined06/07/21
Posts19
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:42 am (edited)
#1741

So anybody else can have this opinion on my site but me? Is that the case?
Yes. At least publicly.

You post the same opinions on twitter.
No one's mentioning that here.
Aside from me. Right now.

But that isnt the reason it was brought to my or anyone elses attention
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:42 am
#1742
I hate to break this news to you Wirla, but worlio.com is your website. You are worlio.com.
It was posted to your personal user page .. on worlio.com. (wirlaburla.worlio.com)
Unfourtunatley, your opinions posted on your website, make those the opinions of the website. Even if it's just your user page.
If someone else were to have posted that post (which is now private, but wasn't always, which is how it was found in the first place) people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner, so you've attached that opinion to your buisness. I think you have the right to your opinion, but I also think that it is completely reasonable to not want you're name attached to the same buisness that has expressed those opinions.

This is all I'll say about the subject.
I'm going to be extremely blunt, your take is fucking retarded. For reasons we've already explained, wirlaburla.worlio.com is not an official part of Worlio.com just because the webmaster created it. It falls under the same treatment as every bit of user content on the site which is not officially endorsed by Worlio. Worlio is not Wirlaburla, Worlio is a product of Wirlaburla, and the two entities are separate. Worlio does not "like" a genre of music. Worlio did not "make" the worm on a string RWX. Worlio did not "express" distaste towards a trans community.

I saw the "Drop the T" page when it was still public. Even if I didn't quite agree with everything that was written, I knew better than to freak out over someone else's solution to a political problem. More importantly, I understood that it's a personal page not endorsed by the Worlio staff, separated from Worlio, under a user directory.

Claiming that hosting an article of text is a sign of endorsement is an illogical stretch that has already been shot down countless times, not only by Worlio's own rules, but by past precedent. Take Twitter for instance. The old verification system was intended to stop impersonation, you had your account approved by a Twitter employee. Next thing you know someone who's verified on Twitter says something offensive, but it's not taken down because a moderator either doesn't catch it or it doesn't break any rules. Is Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) suddenly responsible for everything that person has said? No. Maybe that isn't the best example, but the point I'm trying to show is that this implied endorsement you're saying exists is beating a dead horse.
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:43 am
#1743
So anybody else can have this opinion on my site but me? Is that the case?
Yes. At least publicly.

You post the same opinions on twitter.
No one's mentioning that here.
Aside from me. Right now.
You deserve a trophy for the fucking stupidest thing you have ever posted or said ever.
Joined06/07/21
Posts19
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:52 am
#1744
I hate to break this news to you Wirla, but worlio.com is your website. You are worlio.com.
It was posted to your personal user page .. on worlio.com. (wirlaburla.worlio.com)
Unfourtunatley, your opinions posted on your website, make those the opinions of the website. Even if it's just your user page.
If someone else were to have posted that post (which is now private, but wasn't always, which is how it was found in the first place) people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner, so you've attached that opinion to your buisness. I think you have the right to your opinion, but I also think that it is completely reasonable to not want you're name attached to the same buisness that has expressed those opinions.

This is all I'll say about the subject.
I'm going to be extremely blunt, your take is fucking retarded. For reasons we've already explained, wirlaburla.worlio.com is not an official part of Worlio.com just because the webmaster created it. It falls under the same treatment as every bit of user content on the site which is not officially endorsed by Worlio. Worlio is not Wirlaburla, Worlio is a product of Wirlaburla, and the two entities are separate. Worlio does not "like" a genre of music. Worlio did not "make" the worm on a string RWX. Worlio did not "express" distaste towards a trans community.

I saw the "Drop the T" page when it was still public. Even if I didn't quite agree with everything that was written, I knew better than to freak out over someone else's solution to a political problem. More importantly, I understood that it's a personal page not endorsed by the Worlio staff, separated from Worlio, under a user directory.

Claiming that hosting an article of text is a sign of endorsement is an illogical stretch that has already been shot down countless times, not only by Worlio's own rules, but by past precedent. Take Twitter for instance. The old verification system was intended to stop impersonation, you had your account approved by a Twitter employee. Next thing you know someone who's verified on Twitter says something offensive, but it's not taken down because a moderator either doesn't catch it or it doesn't break any rules. Is Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) suddenly responsible for everything that person has said? No. Maybe that isn't the best example, but the point I'm trying to show is that this implied endorsement you're saying exists is beating a dead horse.
I'm not going to point out the many illogical leaps you took in this post but will ask you a question instead.

If Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) postes something, is he responsible for the things he posts?

Because I never implied wirla was responsible for anyones posts but his own.
May 23rd, 2023 at 2:59 am
#1745
I hate to break this news to you Wirla, but worlio.com is your website. You are worlio.com.
It was posted to your personal user page .. on worlio.com. (wirlaburla.worlio.com)
Unfourtunatley, your opinions posted on your website, make those the opinions of the website. Even if it's just your user page.
If someone else were to have posted that post (which is now private, but wasn't always, which is how it was found in the first place) people would have looked at it and went "oh, what an asshole" but you're the owner, so you've attached that opinion to your buisness. I think you have the right to your opinion, but I also think that it is completely reasonable to not want you're name attached to the same buisness that has expressed those opinions.

This is all I'll say about the subject.
I'm going to be extremely blunt, your take is fucking retarded. For reasons we've already explained, wirlaburla.worlio.com is not an official part of Worlio.com just because the webmaster created it. It falls under the same treatment as every bit of user content on the site which is not officially endorsed by Worlio. Worlio is not Wirlaburla, Worlio is a product of Wirlaburla, and the two entities are separate. Worlio does not "like" a genre of music. Worlio did not "make" the worm on a string RWX. Worlio did not "express" distaste towards a trans community.

I saw the "Drop the T" page when it was still public. Even if I didn't quite agree with everything that was written, I knew better than to freak out over someone else's solution to a political problem. More importantly, I understood that it's a personal page not endorsed by the Worlio staff, separated from Worlio, under a user directory.

Claiming that hosting an article of text is a sign of endorsement is an illogical stretch that has already been shot down countless times, not only by Worlio's own rules, but by past precedent. Take Twitter for instance. The old verification system was intended to stop impersonation, you had your account approved by a Twitter employee. Next thing you know someone who's verified on Twitter says something offensive, but it's not taken down because a moderator either doesn't catch it or it doesn't break any rules. Is Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) suddenly responsible for everything that person has said? No. Maybe that isn't the best example, but the point I'm trying to show is that this implied endorsement you're saying exists is beating a dead horse.
I'm not going to point out the many illogical leaps you took in this post but will ask you a question instead.

If Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) postes something, is he responsible for the things he posts?

Because I never implied wirla was responsible for anyones posts but his own.
I never said I wasn't responsible for what I post, but it is completely insane to say that just because I have a site, I should never speak my mind. I'm an individual, not a company, not a site. I own a business that owns a site, but I am neither. I should be able to have an opinion and speak it without the things I own and operate having that same opinion, and to suggest otherwise is so out of touch.
May 23rd, 2023 at 3:05 am (edited)
#1746
I'm not going to point out the many illogical leaps you took in this post
Well that's just ironic, considering your insistence that site owner == site.

If Jack Dorsey (CEO at that time) postes something, is he responsible for the things he posts?
What you should be asking is if Twitter is responsible for what Jack Dorsey posts. Or I guess that would be Elon now. Either way if it's not directly related to said business then someone's personal opinions do not reflect the business. Elon decided he loves crypto, that doesn't make Twitter a crypto trading network all of a sudden. Elon owns SpaceX, that doesn't mean Twitter is an astronaut forum.

Richard Stallman has some fucked up opinions too, yet I don't see the FSF being accused for anything.

These are all people that own or are affiliated with a larger entity. They have their own lives and thoughts separate from the business world.

I never implied wirla was responsible for anyones posts but his own.
You clearly didn't seem to understand what I was getting that. You are saying that Worlio is responsible for and thus supports whatever Wirlaburla puts on it because it is his website and he is it's author. That isn't how it works. Worlio did not write Drop the T, Wirla did. wirlaburla.worlio.com is a separate website that's just hosted on the same server. It's in a completely different folder, under it's own subdomain, and very distant from the actual Worlio itself. Not very difficult to understand.
Joined06/07/21
Posts19
May 23rd, 2023 at 3:29 am (edited)
#1749

Richard Stallman has some fucked up opinions too, yet I don't see the FSF being accused for anything.
"When considered with other reprehensible comments he has published over the years, these incidents form a pattern of behavior that is incompatible with the goals of the free software movement. We call for Stallman to step down from positions of leadership in our movement. We reject any association with an individual whose words and actions subvert these goals. We look forward to seeing the FSF's action in this matter and want to underscore that allowing Stallman to continue to hold a leadership position would be an unacceptable compromise. Most importantly, we cannot support anyone, directly or indirectly, who condones the endangerment of vulnerable people by rationalizing any part of predator behavior.”


Don't use that as an example when he had to resign because of those same opinions.

May 23rd, 2023 at 3:33 am (edited)
#1750
Don't use that as an example when he had to resign because of those same opinions.
Look at that. They were just like you, pretending there is an association between personal belief and unrelated business so that they could punish someone for something they had no place in (the statements that got him in trouble were repulsive, but I digress).

This doesn't change what I've said. The point was about someone's individual thoughts not being automatically associated with their business affiliates. So far you haven't explained what makes Worlio responsible for the Drop the T page. You're going off of guilt-by-association fallacy, the same kind of argument people used to try and pressure Cloudflare last year.

I'm going to unwatch this thread because arguing with you is clearly a waste of my time, seeing as you'd rather cherrypick things to debate about rather than actually answer the real question.
May 23rd, 2023 at 3:48 am (edited)
#1751
This is a waste of time and effort. Worlio is a separate entity from me, and it always will be and always has been. To suggest otherwise means you fail to separate art from its artist or separate an agreement from history. I am responsible for what I say, not Worlio, so hate on me and my thoughts all you want, but to suggest Worlio has and enforces these same opinions is false. This will be my final reply on the matter. It is useless to make any statement, it is useless to argue with these people. It is clear that some people here have never operated a business that extends outside of their local area scope, otherwise they would not be saying the unhinged shit they are saying here.

My decision has not changed, and will not. While my rant on that page was a rant, it is my own opinion and I will not back down from having my own thoughts.

Worlios' decision has not changed, and will not. Worlio (the business) enforces all rules equally to all of its members and I have not broken any.

You might've had a point when this site was named Wirlaburla.com or Wirlaburla.site, but it is no longer a site of just my own creation. It is no longer "Wirlas' site". Our focus is still archival and oldnet preservation, that has never changed, but preserving the oldnet also includes preserving its freedom, and that is what Worlio intends to do no matter what with its community.
Feel free to discuss and go back and forth between each other on it if you want, I will keep this thread open, but I've said what I've needed to say.
Joined06/07/21
Posts19
May 23rd, 2023 at 3:52 am
#1753
"Oh shit, did you see what owner and operator of blank.com said and supports?"

Oh man, yeah that's kinda really shitty let's do nothing
.

Wait, no. That is in fact not how life works.

The bottom line was that they would have to pull association with fsf because they didnt want to be associated with those opinions.

And that was somewhere that wasnt associated with fsf at all. Didnt have that monquer at all.

Like I stated previously, wirlas opinions other places (which many people have seen) weren't mentioned or brought to our attention.

The post in question was.